A Rejoinder to Polly Toynbee, On Islamophobia and the Left Options

[Onyango Oloo]

-----Original Message-----
From: onyango oloo
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 2:39 PM
To: 'polly.toynbee@guardian.co.uk'; 'editor@guardianunlimited.co.uk'
Cc: DELETED

Subject: Rejoinder to Polly Toynbee of the London Guardian on Islamophobia and the Left

By Onyango Oloo in Montreal, Quebec
Saturday, June 12, 2004

To: polly.toynbee@guardian.co.uk

Dear Ms. Toynbee:

I read your column that appeared yesterday in the online edition of the Guardian (“Get Off Your Knees” Friday, June 11, 2004) speaking about the left and Islam.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,...1236199,00.html


Your sub-editor has summarized the gist of your arguments in the caption they gave your piece: “Afraid of being labeled Islamophobic, the left has fallen into an embarrassed silence on religion. We must speak up.”

As a Kenyan Marxist who lives in Montreal, Quebec, I certainly qualify as a “leftist.” As someone who grew up in Mombasa, a cosmopolitan, multi-faith town with a definite Islamic character, I feel I have a lot to say about Islamophobia. As a person of colour living in North America where the main content of contemporary systemic racism is virulent and often violent Anti-Arab Islamophobia, I know that this is not an academic subject.

There are many things you say in your article below that I do not have any quibbles with- the facts you cite verifying the institutional marginalization of Muslims for instance, so I am not going to rehash all that.

I want to focus on two paragraphs which to me hold the kernel of your arguments:

“Standing against religious apartheid, atheists come into their own here. Those who are as anti-Christian as they are anti-Islamic can oppose state promotion of any religion without discrimination. Equally repelled by Christianity and its atrocities, they can challenge Islamic beliefs with an unembarrassed even-handedness.

”But the rise of the concept of Islamophobia has struck too many dumb. They no longer express anti-religious views for fear of being Islamophobic. So, apart from protests by the doughty scions of the National Secular Society and their British Humanist Association allies, the left has fallen into an embarrassed silence on the subject of religion, just as it needs to speak up.”

The first thing I would like to say is that your sweeping generalization about the “embarrassed silence” of the left on the subject of religion is certainly not true, definitely not here in Canada.

I do not even know what you mean by “the left”, because you distinguish it from the “far left.” Nowadays even garden variety wishy washy and quite reactionary liberals are considered “leftists” by mainstream media pundits. If you ever watch CNN’s “Crossfire” then you have observed the bizarre phenomenon where the rightwing liberal democrat is dubbed the “leftist” to distinguish that person from the hardcore fascist leaning neo-conservative.

I am not however going to insist on a definition of terms and take it for granted that under the rubric of the “left” you include everyone who consider themselves socialist oriented in one way or another- a very mixed bag indeed.

I kicked off by saying that your sweeping generalization about the alleged “embarrassed silence” of the left is not true, at least here in Quebec.

Some of us “Leftists” in Canada have been very vocal on the subject- whether denouncing the Islamophobia of the mainstream media or denouncing the talibanization of entire societies in Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

As a Kenyan Marxist I have stood in solidarity with Kenyan Muslims when they have been attacked by US led imperialist forces dubbing entire communities as proto-terrorists and have SUPPORTED the demand by Kenyan Muslims to have their religious rights ENSHRINED in the new Kenyan constitution as a justified DEMOCRATIC demand.

I am an ATHEIST who is NOT threatened by people who profess religious faith- be they Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or adherents of traditional African religions.

I am a DEMOCRAT, who happens to be socialist and I DO FEEL THREATENED by RIGHTWING people who hide under the cloak of religious fundamentalism to launch attacks on women, sexual and religious minorities and of course, communists like myself.

It is important to grasp the nuances betwixt my twin approaches to the subject of religion because it underscores my point of departure with your blanket condemnation of religious schools for example.

Within the Canadian context, I would support federal and provincial funding for Islamic schools simply because that would be the democratic and fair minded thing to do- Catholic schools for instance, especially here in Quebec are already being funded by the authorities and this has not led to a Catholic dictatorship in Quebec.

This province led the entire country in opposition to the illegal and racist war against Iraq and Montreal is the headquarters to a number of organizations fighting in solidarity with Arab, Muslim and Middle Eastern people. This same cathedral and rosary drenched province has a very proud pro-choice record and is home to one of North America’s most vibrant gay, lesbian and transgendered communities.

Clearly the existence of federally funded Catholic schools has done nothing to undermine the democratic, progressive and SECULAR underpinnings and historic legacy of Quebec nor has it prevented one of its cities, Montreal, from being in my opinion, the undisputed cultural and multi-cultural capital of Canada.

I grew up in Mombasa, an ancient city with a distinct Muslim character.

At that time-in the seventies and eighties- I was a practicing Christian attending a high school run by Baptist missionaries from the American Deep South. The Muslims in Mombasa were NOT threatened by Christian institutions dotted around Mombasa nor did they develop any hatred against their fellow People of the Book. On my part, I felt blessed by the fact that I could count among my closest friends, kids who attended Madrassa regularly and had to excuse themselves every so often to go to the nearby Mosque for prayer. My Muslim friends grew up with Islamic tenets; I followed my then Christian faith and it never acted as a divisive cultural or social factor between us.

In other words, when the issue of religious rights is dealt with as a DEMOCRATIC demand embedded in the very cultural fabric of society, it ceases to be an exclusive issue, it ceases to be an explosive issue and it ceases to be a toxic issue that threatens to blow up a time bomb stuck up the derriere of oblivious society.

On the contrary, the question of religious rights immediately assumes a sinister character the moment when the profession of religious belief becomes CRIMINALIZED and ILLEGALIZED, as with the banning of the hijab from the heads of French school girls recently. And we have seen from the bloody, long running civil war in Algeria that trying to stifle Islamic aspirations expressed openly and democratically only drives these aspirations to the clandestine nether regions where they are seized upon often by religious extremists who show no qualms about distorting Islam to suit their own nefarious agendas. Many of my Muslim friends have told me that they hold no brief for Osama bin Laden’s Wahabbi extremism, which is a minority trend even within the Sunni faith- but that he has become a reluctant hero to many Muslims who disagree with him on spiritual grounds but embrace him at the POLITICAL level because he symbolizes to a growing number of the followers of Islam, the image of Muslims standing up to fight against a system that has demonized them en masse.

About three and half or four weeks ago I saw a brilliant segment on CBS’s "60 Minutes” show featuring Christiane Amanpour. It appears as if these days, CNN’s most famous face saves and savors her most critical and progressive contributions for her moonlighting side work with CBS rather than for her regular cable network employer that has morphed of late into nothing more than an extension of the Pentagon propaganda department.

Anyways, her show was talking about the rise of what can be termed “Islamic religious fundamentalism” in the French inner- cities. She exposed the economic apartheid that has condemned French citizens with origins in North Africa and the Middle East to a subaltern subsistence eerily reminiscent of the underclass status of African-American, Latino and Latina communities in the dark recesses of US society.

Using interviews and captivating footage, she also demonstrated, quite effectively in my view, how a male dominated semi-criminal gang element has stepped into the void, ABUSING Islam to stifle the gender rights of girls and young women from Muslim families who are seen to be prone to Western and non-Islamic influences. There is the tragedy of Sohane Benziane who was burned alive in the basement of an apartment complex by a gang leader who had told her that he didn't want to see her on his turf and the courageous fight back led by Samira Bellil that launched the “Ni putes ni soumises” national movement in France formed by women to combat violence targeting young women from Muslim and Middle Eastern backgrounds.

For more on this, click on the CBS link below:

http://wwjtv.com/rooney/sixtyminutes_story_137205127.html


My position, especially after watching that disturbing segment on television, remains that official Islamophobia is the mother of what often emerges as Islamic extremism in Western societies.

And again, my growing up in Mombasa bears witness to this.

Most of the people that I grew up with were staunch Muslims- my classmates from Form One to Form Six including many Muslims- yes, Muslim parents in Mombasa DID NOT FEAR taking their children to attend Christian Schools, and by and large these schools- whether you are talking of Baptist High School or the Star of the Sea Secondary School for girls did not insult their Muslim students by trying to convert them to Christianity. The curriculum was largely secular with options for people who wanted to take Christian Religious or Islamic Religious studies because the Kenyan government regulated all educational institutions. Surely if an African government that is considered in some European quarters to be based in a “backward Third World country” could not only survive but thrive from this experiment, then it becomes very tenuous to argue against the state support for Islamic schools in the UK. Mark you, three of Kenya’s foremost intellectuals are Prof. Ali Mazrui, Prof. Al Amin Mazrui and Prof. Abdilatif Abdalla- three academic giants based in the United States and Germany respectively, who have won worldwide accolades as leading secular scholars who have remained anchored and moored in the Islamic ethos and milieu that nurtured their early intellectual and educational growth.

Indeed if one takes a long view of the confluence between Islam and education over the expanse of times past, one sees that Muslims have acquitted themselves fairly honorably. The world oldest university was established by Muslims- Al Azhar in Cairo, Egypt, thousands of years ago(http://www.frcu.eun.eg/www/universities/html/azhar.html#history) and nobody disputes the intellectual contributions that the first Islamic renaissance helped inspire in Europe long before the emergence of the Einsteins, Hawkings and Plancks.

Why does a Kenyan atheist who is an avowed Marxist speak so lovingly and ferociously in defence of schools run by Muslims?

One of the reasons is because I benefited directly from being in such an institution. I did my “A” Levels at HH The Aga Khan Kenya Secondary School in Mombasa run by the Ismaili community in East Africa who as you know, are Shia Muslims.

A quick scan of the examination results in Kenya over the last thirty five years will place MOST of the schools run by the Ismaili community among the very top academic performers- and these are schools that welcomed Christians, Jews, agnostics, Buddhists and everything in between.

When I was at this particular Aga Khan school, my teacher for General Paper was an agnostic Englishwoman called Ms. Morris; my Literature teacher was a devout Christian from southern India called Mrs. Lewis, my Economics instructor was a “recovering Catholic” called Mr. Desouza while my History guru was an Islamic Socialist called Mr Meghji.

My classmates were Hindus, Sunni and Shia Muslims, Catholics and Protestants and fledgling atheists like myself. I am living proof that schools run by Muslims are NOT NECESSARILY sectarian, intolerant or dismissive of other faith communities and CLEARLY do not prevent some of its students from becoming Marxists and Atheists later in life.

Based on the above reasons, Polly Toynbee, only one conclusion is left open for me, in summing up your views on the Left and Islamophobia:

You are out to lunch, Polly Toynbee.

Onyango Oloo
Montreal,
Saturday, June 12, 2004
1:24 pm Eastern Standard Time







Montreal,
Saturday, June 12, 2004
1:24 pm Eastern Standard Time

This post has been edited by Onyango Oloo: Jun 12 2004, 08:15 PM

[Toryboy83]

Mr Oloo

What a disappointing post for someone who is such a prolific writer on this forum and so keen to expatiate widely on so many topics. I suspect you were rather keen to explain to your many followers what a wonderfully diverse and multi-cultural education you had in Mombasa and how privileged you were to have had it. But I probably don't need to say that this upbringing does not make you an authority on this matter, and having read Polly Toynbee's article and then your own thoughts, I am more inclined to agree utterly with almost all of what she said.

Without dwelling too heavily on her article as a whole, I shall confine my response to your arguments based soley on the two paragraphs you question. Firstly, I fail to see why you so fundamentally disagree with the notion that the "left", however you want to define it, has been reticent in denouncing Islam where it feels justified in doing so? I suspect that Toynbee has chosen to criticise the left for its silence as she is writing from a centre-left perspective and for a centre-left audience. Her arguments in my opinion would also be fair for those on the centre-right, but the left may well speak with more authority as it is, generally, seen as more atheist and so less motivated by any hidden agenda. That said, the left in the UK, as Toynbee makes clear, has consistently failed to use its political voice and atheist impartiality to challenge Islam at a time when it would be no less justifiable than in the way many others criticise christianity. Lets get a bit of parity back into this crucial debate.

Undoubtedly opposition to the war in Iraq opens numerous doors to challenge Bush and his right wing agenda in the US. But lets also question the totalitarian nature of Islamic governance, the oppressive nature of Islamic law and the terrorist imperialism of extremist Islamists all over the world.

I submit that the left has remained silent in the UK for fear of being lablelled Islamaphobic, a tragedy for freedom of speech. Furthermore, it would be welcomed if moderate muslims were more active in condemning extremist aspects to their religion they disagree with.

Mr Oloo, you spoke at length and gave some enchanting examples of your invovlement with people of all different faiths and should be comended for solidarity with Kenyan muslims. But this only serves to exemplify the point made by Toynbee. At no point did you mention any possible concerns you, as an atheist, may have with Islam and instead launched into a populist attack on "right wing people". Is this because you think Islam is without any faults at all?

As for your endless endorsement for multifaith schools, the relevance of which I'm still looking for with regard to any necessary critique of Islam, I simply say that it's perfectly legitimate for people who, like myself, have a deep dislike of the notion that it's the job of the state to fund religious indoctrination. You may well have come through your education an unscathed atheist as indeed I have, but I don't see how the disappearance of such Islamic or Catholic schools would do any harm to the "very cultural fabric of society" you talk about. Such faith schools are indeed successful where they teach a balanced curriculam, but I can give you examples of extreme bigotry and the cultivation of hatred where faith schools are the norm in Northern Ireland. I can't think of a more divisive way to segregate communities than through separating children, by virtue of their faith, into differnet schools where they will be fed on a diet of religious propaganda and in many areas of the UK, this is the product of faith schools. Northern Ireland is a prime exaple of the creation of deep divisions in an already divided society and this must surely be perpetuated by the Catholic/Protestant education system.

I am certainly not talking about the supresssion of religious thought, simply that in this day and age, in the UK, the issue of religion is best left to the individual and not the state. Yet you make a leaping assertion in proposing that, because your education in Mombasa was secular and tollerant, it's somehow tenuous to suggest that schools in the UK could have problems in being run on the basis of Islamic faith or, I presume, any other faith. I'm sorry, but how long ago were you educated? Why do you suppose that Mombasa may offer the same societal norms as, say, Manchester? And regardless of whether an African government is regarded as being third world or not, it doesn't mean the same education system will work here in the UK in the same that it did for you, in Kenya, exemplary though it so obviously was.

Anyway, it does baffle me how and why you ended up on a discussion of faith schools other than to perhaps suggest that they are an ideal place for people to be critical of ALL religions in a moderate and respectful way. But I don't see how that really relates to the substantive point raised in Toybee's piece - that the left could and should be critical of Islam and not feel obliged to be silent simply for fear of being labelled Islamaphobic. Such labelling will, in many cases, probably come from those who are not so much keen to support Islam as to attack the "religoius right" - shouting down anyone who feels uneasy with aspects of Islamic faith and so diverting attention back to a condemnation of the US and its right wing government. Talk about a hidden agenda.

Therefore Mr Oloo, only one conclusion is left open to me. You have singularly failed to give reasons to support the logic of your argument in as much as you presumably believe the left in the UK has stood up to the excesses of Islam. Equally, your fascinating analysis of faith based schools, interesting though it is, bears little relevance to the matter in hand and does nothing to detract from the accuracy of what Polly Toynbee has proposed.

[Onyango Oloo]

Response to Toryboy83

In your attempt to shore up the shaky arguments of Polly Toynbee you have introduced many untruths about the Left and Islam as well as trying to read the most outlandish things into what I said in my response to Ms. Toynbee.

I will ignore your unnecessary and quite juvenile attacks on my person and concentrate on the gist of your rejoinder.

It is not altogether surprising to me that a netter calling themselves "Toryboy" rushes to the "defence" of a closeted Islamophobe like Polly Toynbee.

Over here in Canada, the Ugandan born lesbian broacaster Irshad Manji started by criticising Islam from the so called 'Left."

Today she is a full fledged Zionist who gives lectures extolling the virtues of "Israeli democracy."

It may be worthwhile for you to revist your history of Northern Ireland because it is simply SIMPLISTIC to reduce everything there to religion.

You may also want to familiariaze yourself a little bit more with how living and breathing Communists deal with Muslim populations- they are guaranteed freedom of worship for your infornation, while it is also true that others have perscuted religious believers including Muslims, Christians and Jews.

And I will take a Marxist Atheist everytime over a wishy washy closeted Christian or fascist atheist anytime...

Here is a more detailed response to your remarks:

Toryboy 83 Says:

“Firstly, I fail to see why you so fundamentally disagree with the notion that the "left", however you want to define it, has been reticent in denouncing Islam where it feels justified in doing so? I suspect that Toynbee has chosen to criticise the left for its silence as she is writing from a centre-left perspective and for a centre-left audience. Her arguments in my opinion would also be fair for those on the centre-right, but the left may well speak with more authority as it is, generally, seen as more atheist and so less motivated by any hidden agenda. That said, the left in the UK, as Toynbee makes clear, has consistently failed to use its political voice and atheist impartiality to challenge Islam at a time when it would be no less justifiable than in the way many others criticise christianity. Lets get a bit of parity back into this crucial debate.”

Oloo Responds:

Where is the evidence that the “left” has failed to “challenge” Islam? And to “challenge Islam” on what issues? What has Islam in the UK as an organized religion done to warrant “challenge”?

Be specific.

Are you trying to suggest that the “left” has been “reticent” to join in the chorus of demented attacks on Muslims in the UK? Are you trying to suggest that the “left” has been “reticent” to buy the arguments of Falwell and Robertson? What are you talking about?

Toryboy 83 Says:

”Undoubtedly opposition to the war in Iraq opens numerous doors to challenge Bush and his right wing agenda in the US. But let us also question the totalitarian nature of Islamic governance, the oppressive nature of Islamic law and the terrorist imperialism of extremist Islamists all over the world. “

Oloo Says:


Where is this “ totalitarian nature of Islamic governance?

Are you perhaps, referring to the rule of the Saudi royal family that is armed to the teeth by the US government? Are you perhaps referring to crazed despotism of the Taliban regime that was maintained in power by the Yankees for decades? Or are you by chance talking about the Sudanese regime that gets its US weapons second hand via the Saudi arms dealers? Are you talking about the Velayet Farghi regime in Iran that was given arms by Oliver North and used to throw Communists into burning ovens? Are you talking about Al Qaeda which was created by the CIA or Hamas which was a brainchild of MOSSAD?

Do you know WHO exposed the Saudi ties to the US? Who told us who Osama bin Laden really was? How about the machinations of the Taliban and the Al Turabi clique in the Sudan?

It was the Left- Marxists, Socialists, Radical Nationalists, assorted anti-imperialists.


Toryboy83 Declares:

”I submit that the left has remained silent in the UK for fear of being lablelled Islamaphobic, a tragedy for freedom of speech. Furthermore, it would be welcomed if moderate muslims were more active in condemning extremist aspects to their religion they disagree with.”

Oloo Says:

On what BASIS do you “submit” the specious charge? Where is the evidence that the Left in the UK has remained silent, and like I said, silent about what?

Toryboy 83 Says:

”Mr Oloo, you spoke at length and gave some enchanting examples of your invovlement with people of all different faiths and should be comended for solidarity with Kenyan muslims. But this only serves to exemplify the point made by Toynbee. At no point did you mention any possible concerns you, as an atheist, may have with Islam and instead launched into a populist attack on "right wing people". Is this because you think Islam is without any faults at all? “

Oloo Says:

To paraphrase Muhammad Ali, I have no quarrel with Muslims. I lived in Mombasa for a very large part of my life. Not once did I face discrimination from Muslims because I was a non-Muslim. I lived in a predominantly Muslim area. I was never treated differently because I was a non Muslim. In sharp contrast, I was almost SHOT DEAD within my first week in Canada in November 1988 by some trigger happy racist cops in Toronto. A member of Mambo Gani, Adongo Ogony, can attest to this. I was with him in that car when the cops stopped the car we were traveling just outside the Harvey’s fast food outlet on Jarvis and Dundas in Toronto. I am NOT going to launch an artificial attack just to please closeted Islamophobes like Polly Toynbee.

Toryboy 83 Says:

”As for your endless endorsement for multifaith schools, the relevance of which I'm still looking for with regard to any necessary critique of Islam, I simply say that it's perfectly legitimate for people who, like myself, have a deep dislike of the notion that it's the job of the state to fund religious indoctrination. You may well have come through your education an unscathed atheist as indeed I have, but I don't see how the disappearance of such Islamic or Catholic schools would do any harm to the "very cultural fabric of society" you talk about. Such faith schools are indeed successful where they teach a balanced curriculam, but I can give you examples of extreme bigotry and the cultivation of hatred where faith schools are the norm in Northern Ireland. I can't think of a more divisive way to segregate communities than through separating children, by virtue of their faith, into differnet schools where they will be fed on a diet of religious propaganda and in many areas of the UK, this is the product of faith schools. Northern Ireland is a prime exaple of the creation of deep divisions in an already divided society and this must surely be perpetuated by the Catholic/Protestant education system.”

Oloo Says:

Your remarks above are SIMPLY UNHINGED and display a deep lack of knowledge of the conflict in Northern Ireland. Surely, in the Twenty first century, we should be able to look beneath the veneer of the superficial notion that the conflict in Northern Ireland is about religion. That is so superficial- and we could debate it as a separate point. Am I making up the reality of my lived experience as a Kenyan Marxist who had a healthy education at a well-known Muslim run educational institution?

Toryboy 83 Says:

”I am certainly not talking about the suppression of religious thought, simply that in this day and age, in the UK, the issue of religion is best left to the individual and not the state. Yet you make a leaping assertion in proposing that, because your education in Mombasa was secular and tollerant, it's somehow tenuous to suggest that schools in the UK could have problems in being run on the basis of Islamic faith or, I presume, any other faith. I'm sorry, but how long ago were you educated? Why do you suppose that Mombasa may offer the same societal norms as, say, Manchester? And regardless of whether an African government is regarded as being third world or not, it doesn't mean the same education system will work here in the UK in the same that it did for you, in Kenya, exemplary though it so obviously was.”

Oloo Says:

You may have missed the fact that I was posting from Montreal in the year 2004. For your information Onyango Oloo is NOT THE ONLY NON-MUSLIM STUDENT to ever graduate from the Aga Khan educational institutions. What kind of garbage is this about when I went to school? As we speak, hundreds of thousands of NON-MUSLIM students are attending Muslim run schools all over Kenya.

Toryboy 83 Says:

”Anyway, it does baffle me how and why you ended up on a discussion of faith schools other than to perhaps suggest that they are an ideal place for people to be critical of ALL religions in a moderate and respectful way. But I don't see how that really relates to the substantive point raised in Toybee's piece - that the left could and should be critical of Islam and not feel obliged to be silent simply for fear of being labelled Islamaphobic. Such labelling will, in many cases, probably come from those who are not so much keen to support Islam as to attack the "religoius right" - shouting down anyone who feels uneasy with aspects of Islamic faith and so diverting attention back to a condemnation of the US and its right wing government. Talk about a hidden agenda.”

Oloo Says:

Why should I criticize ANY RELIGION just for the heck of it? When we criticize the mad mullahs of Iran for persecuting communists and democrats, we are specific. When we denounce the Taliban thugs for machine-gunning women we are very specific. When we expose the Christian terrorist bombers of abortion clinics, we are very specific. There is nothing as ridiculous as “being critical of all religions in a moderate and respectful way.” I am NOT going to denounce someone for simply being a Christian, Muslim or what have you, just to prove my atheist credentials to the Polly Toynbees and Toryboys of this world.


Toryboy 83 Says:

“Therefore Mr Oloo, only one conclusion is left open to me. You have singularly failed to give reasons to support the logic of your argument in as much as you presumably believe the left in the UK has stood up to the excesses of Islam. Equally, your fascinating analysis of faith based schools, interesting though it is, bears little relevance to the matter in hand and does nothing to detract from the accuracy of what Polly Toynbee has proposed.”

Oloo Says:

That is an artificial forced conclusion reflecting more a desperate desire for one upmanship and Toryboy Islamaphobia than anything else…


Onyango Oloo
Montreal

This post has been edited by Onyango Oloo: Jun 16 2004, 06:05 AM

[Onyango Oloo]

This is what MAY have prompted Polly's article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0...1235370,00.html

[Toryboy83]

Mr Oloo. With all due respect, there is no need to read so heavily into my remarks so that you perceive a personal attack. That simply is not the case and I have nothing but respect for people who will speak their mind and back up their assertions with credible evidence.

Your first response is a quite staggering question as I fail to see how I can prove something I'm arguing isn't there. You ask for "evidence" that the left in the UK has failed to challenge Islam, but that's my point. They have consistently failed to do so, the point made by Toynbee in her article. How you can ask me to produce evidence for something I'm arguing doesn't obviously exist is baffling.

Islam should be challenged because of the major role it plays across the world. I'm not going to be tempted into a denunciation of Islam as that isn't the point of our discussion. I simply say that such a discussion should be had, where necessary, without the unwarranted accusations of Islamaphobia that are thrown around, and such a debate can be dealt with on a sensible level. Once again, the left in the UK, which potentially could speak with a great degree of authority on this, has so far failed to do so. We may disagree on this, but living as I do in the UK I am in a good position to back up Toynbee on this.

You ask where the totalitarian nature of Islamic governance is and then proceed to give fine examples of Islamic countries that should, and rightly be criticised for their behaviour, so thank you for making my point for me. Quite understandably you chose to display them in terms of unedifying relations with the US in recent years, but such countries are not free from justifiable condemnation because of that are they?

I might also add that when we talk about the likes of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, and other Islamic countries around the world we should also consider their human rights records, lack of democracy, intolerance of other faiths and harbouring of terrorists that should be mentioned, but, self evidently are missing in your posts. The totalitarian nature of such governments manifests itself in Islamic law and you managed to neatly obviate commenting on the excesses of Sharia law in places like Nigeria, Pakistan, more recently Zanzibar, and many other countries.

I believe the democratic world has an obligation to speak out against such excesses Mr Oloo, and while not denying a country the right to govern itself under its own rule of law, I will happily speak out against the stoning to death of people in public, the criminalisation of homosexuality, the lashing of human beings for trivial offences, mutilations, disproportionate prison sentences, and a lack of gender equality. I could go on. That isn't to say that this situation exists in all Islamic countries and I'm sure you can cite examples where Sharia law is enforced in moderation and with a democratic mandate. But that shouldn't stop us criticising such obvious excess, should it?

Now dealing with the diversion into faith based schools and I have said already that they can indeed be a force for good where the curriculum is balanced and impartial. But with respect Mr Oloo, and not wanting to simplify the debate over Northern Ireland which so obviously is not just about religion, I speak with people from Ulster on a daily basis and there can be little doubt that religion plays a substantial role in perpetuating the divide between communities. It's nice being patronised by you but not too often. I await your suggestion as to what the most important issues dividing in Northern Ireland actually are.

And finally no one is going to ask you, not least because of the nonsensical verbiage they'll end up with, to denounce religious thought simply for the sake of it. But the point I have been making all along, in full support of Toynbee or anyone else who agrees that it's not Islamaphobic to criticise Islam where necessary, is that this should take place without the unwarranted and completely reactionary charge that you, Mr Oloo, have consistently made in this thread, namely that such a view is Islamaphobic. What nonsense. Of course you're not going to denounce someone simply for holding religious beliefs and neither should anyone else. But for those of us who have misgivings about the behaviour of Islam in certain areas around the world, a right to question and criticise should be unimpeded.

[Onyango Oloo]

Your first response is a quite staggering question as I fail to see how I can prove something I'm arguing isn't there. You ask for "evidence" that the left in the UK has failed to challenge Islam, but that's my point. They have consistently failed to do so, the point made by Toynbee in her article. How you can ask me to produce evidence for something I'm arguing doesn't obviously exist is baffling.

what a neat way to sidestep an issue once you have been exposed as lacking substance.

btw, pakistan and nigeria are also us allies- i do not know if you noticed that as well.

oo
mtl

[Toryboy83]

I'm sorry but that simply won't do. No side stepping of the issue, so let me make myself clear for the last time. I agree with Toynbee because here in the UK I have seen little evidence of the left voicing any concerns when there so blatantly is a need for people of all political and religious persuasions to consider the harsh excesses of militant Islamism. It's a shame you are not prepared to accept, even if you feel the left has been as critical as it should be on the subject, that there is a need to challenge militant Islamism in it's most opressive and aggressive forms in the same way you indulge in a critique of Christian/western governance. Please, post any articles from the left that you have come across as I for one would be genuinely interested to read them.

This post has been edited by Toryboy83: Jun 16 2004, 03:42 PM

[Onyango Oloo]

I'm sorry but that simply won't do. No side stepping of the issue, so let me make myself clear for the last time. I agree with Toynbee because here in the UK I have seen little evidence of the left voicing any concerns when there so blatantly is a need for people of all political and religious persuasions to consider the harsh excesses of militant Islamism. It's a shame you are not prepared to accept, even if you feel the left has been as critical as it should be on the subject, that there is a need to challenge militant Islamism in it's most opressive and aggressive forms in the same way you indulge in a critique of Christian/western governance. Please, post any articles from the left that you have come across as I for one would be genuinely interested to read them.

Again, be concrete.

On what issues Toryboy?

oo
mtl

[Toryboy83]

This is a pointless waste of time and you're clearly hellbent on patronising me on a subject I'm genuinely interested. Save the typing Mr Oloo, it's not worth the web site it's written on.

[Onyango Oloo]

This is a pointless waste of time and you're clearly hellbent on patronising me on a subject I'm genuinely interested. Save the typing Mr Oloo, it's not worth the web site it's written on.

you finally get the point that i do not take you seriously when you regurgitate a litany of unsubstantiated assertions.

i doff my hat to your prescience...

oo
mtl

[Mambo]

I have only read Polly Toynbee's article and Oloo's first post, for the moment. What Polly said is that it would be better for Muslims to go to secular schools that are cohesive and all-embracing, rather than specifically Muslim schools where they are likely to get isolated further. I agree with this stance. I have to laugh at OO's example of Aga Khan being a Muslim school. This is the same school I went to as well in Mombasa, and it is hardly a Muslim school. It is funded by the Aga Khan, thats about it. You get a whole cross-section of society there, and this is what schools should be about. You can't confuse that with a school which wants to cater exclusively for Muslims and Islamic studies.

[Onyango Oloo]

I have only read Polly Toynbee's article and Oloo's first post, for the moment. What Polly said is that it would be better for Muslims to go to secular schools that are cohesive and all-embracing, rather than specifically Muslim schools where they are likely to get isolated further. I agree with this stance. I have to laugh at OO's example of Aga Khan being a Muslim school. This is the same school I went to as well in Mombasa, and it is hardly a Muslim school. It is funded by the Aga Khan, thats about it. You get a whole cross-section of society there, and this is what schools should be about. You can't confuse that with a school which wants to cater exclusively for Muslims and Islamic studies.

mambo

I said KENSEC was a Muslim RUN school.

And I was responding specifically to Polly's admonition against the Left.

I said that there was nothing WRONG even with Muslim schools run exclusively for Muslims. Society does not seem to have ANY PROBLEMS with existing exclusive schools for Catholics and Jews.

Experience has shown repeatedly that ONE CANNOT LEGISLATE against religious belief.

It is actually more DEMOCRATIC to ENTRENCH religious freedom rather than outlaw it- allowing it to acquire a forbidden fruit complex.

Onyango Oloo
Montreal

This post has been edited by Onyango Oloo: Jun 17 2004, 03:06 AM

[Onyango Oloo]

mambo:

on a separate note, is it not a small world indeed?

oo
mtl